Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 9th Nov 2006 20:44 UTC
Windows Paul Thurrott takes a long look at Vista. "It's hard to put Windows Vista in perspective. On the one hand, the product has been in development for over five years, which means that Vista had one of the longest development cycles in the 20+ year history of Windows. Paradoxically, Windows Vista is both revolutionary and evolutionary. While it includes modern OS features, such as a new hardware-based graphical user interface, Vista will also feel like familiar territory, for the most part, to anyone that's already familiar with Windows XP. And Mac advocates can claim, truthfully, that many of Vista's best features appeared first on Mac OS X, sometimes years ago."
Order by: Score:
v Paul Thurott rocks!
by erdizz on Thu 9th Nov 2006 20:58 UTC
Am I oldschool?
by d_Yn on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:12 UTC
d_Yn
Member since:
2005-07-06

For me, a hardware based GUI is hardly a modern operating system feature.I rather thought a fine scheduler or effective multitasking are those what count really.

RE: Am I oldschool?
by tomcat on Fri 10th Nov 2006 02:14 UTC in reply to "Am I oldschool?"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

Yes, you're oldschool.

Not that convinced
by Ikshaar on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:22 UTC
Ikshaar
Member since:
2005-07-14

I freezed RC2 every 2 hours... i hope RTM is much better.

And the new explorer is really terrible.. for the life of me I cannot understand how removing all action bars buttons except a stupid "burn" button that I never use is a good thing...

dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

Just a minor correction. Every Windows since NT4 SP X have had "Instant Desktop Search". It's just turned off by default and is everything but user friendly.

But you _can_ use the Indexing Service to get instant results. You just have to enter parameterized queries in the free search textbox in Windows standard Search. And off we go, though it's somewhat rough.

I don't know why they aren't utilizing it much more, bur perhaps bad management is the key?

About Windows N versions, Paul Thurrott doesn't know what he's talking about. Calling them unpopular is wrong, since nobody except a few geeks know about the existence. And ordinary users don't care about the mostly ideological issues for geeks wanting the possibility to uninstall WMP and related services. Nor do they care about companies wanting to get rid of WMP on their servers.
Apart from that Thurrott should stay away from politics in a review of Vista. Offensive terms like "Created to satisfy power-hungry antitrust regulators in the EU" just makes him look like a cheap street whore. If I should ever decide to buy Vista, it would be Vista Business N.

He is right about a few things like the "watering down the uniqueness of the Vista platform" due to the backports to XP and Win2K3 (and hooray for those backports). And of course the fact that "many of Windows Vista's best features have been jettisoned". I actually liked the old Side Bar with integrated task bar and systray over the newer heavily crippled Side Bar.

A replacement of the aged start bar|quick panel|taskbar|systray thingy would have been great.

EDITED: Fixed a typo in Thurrott's surname, and a few other typos.

Edited 2006-11-09 21:36

NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

Offensive terms like "Created to satisfy power-hungry antitrust regulators in the EU" just makes him look like a cheap street whore.

I think he was accurate. Fining Microsoft because they bundled a media player with Windows for 10 years or more is evidence of bias in the EU anti-competitiion commision.

Calling someone "cheap street whore" means you are doing the usual venom spewing thing typical of cultists who disagree with anyone who doesn't hate Microsoft.

borker Member since:
2006-04-04

accusing someone of 'venom spewing' and being a 'cultist' is typical of anyone who blindly loves microsoft and hates freedom and little puppies. Wow, isn't accusing a person of a shortcoming whilst exhibiting that same shortcoming fun?

Anyway, I've read your posts here and there, so I won't bother arguing with you over how the EU (and the US for that matter) had every right to label MS' business practices as monopolistic.

Edited 2006-11-09 22:11

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

*LOL*

I just like the way NotParker always pick the parts where I critisize something or someone more or less related to Microsoft, while he leaves out the praise I give Microsoft in areas where they deserve it.

It appears to be more important for NotParker to harass me than it is for him to remind people that Microsoft was years ahead of FLOSS and Apple in regard to Desktop Search technologies.

stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

I think that the point behind the EU ruling was fining Microsoft for being a monopolistic, anti-competitive, typical-example-of-corporate-America ugly bully. They just had to hang the fine on something legitimate.

Shkaba Member since:
2006-06-22

Now please tell me how could you be so offensive to street whores:

"Just makes him look like a cheap street whore."

Please for the sake of god do not equate street whores with mr.Parrot. They (whores) do, after all, have some integrity. And we all know who has none. It is them ... Europians. They constantly whine about WMP, network protocols used by windows, other software vendors etc. How dare they make MS play in a leveled field???

Sorry guys couldn't resist ;-)

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Aahh..

Well, please accept my apologies on behalf of the cheap street whores. They too have a place in this universe (I think) ;)

Versions?
by DigitalAxis on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:34 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

Though I use and respect Mac OS X, virtually every version Apple has shipped since 2001 has been a minor update, akin to a Windows 98 SE or Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2). Meanwhile, Microsoft has pushed an amazing variety of Windows versions out the door since 2001. Some highlights include Windows XP Embedded, Windows XP Media Center Edition (MCE), Windows XP MCE 2004, Windows XP MCE 2005, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition (TPC), Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005, and Windows XP Professional x64 Edition.

I'm curious, how much different are all the different versions of XP he's listing? I mean, I'm fairly sure Embedded and 64bit are rather different from regular XP, but does anyone know how much changed between XP MCE, XP MCE 2004 and XP MCE 2005, for example? I guess I always assumed not that much.

All in all, this article seems to be a well-written exhaustive rundown of Windows Vista's history and comparison of differences between the versions (or seems like it will be once he publishes the rest of it).

EDIT: Punctuation

Edited 2006-11-09 21:38

RE: Versions?
by sultanqasim on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:52 UTC in reply to "Versions?"
sultanqasim Member since:
2006-10-28

Windows XP Media Center Edition (MCE), Windows XP MCE 2004, Windows XP MCE 2005, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition (TPC) and Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005 are almost identical. The only difference in Media Center is the skin and Media Cneter (duh) and all the tablet PC versions have a tablet handwriting feature and a useless utility called "Journal". Windows XP Professional x64 Edition is identical to XP Pro except for being 64 bit and embedded is just a heavily stripped down version.

RE[2]: Versions?
by mmu_man on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Versions?"
mmu_man Member since:
2006-09-30

Remember marketing is the art of selling twice the same thing, at different pricing, targets or branding.

RE[2]: Versions?
by Nelson on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Versions?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Identical to being XP except 64 Bit.

is that ALL?

It's not like migrating a 32Bit OS to a 64Bit platform isn't hard or anything.

RE[3]: Versions?
by eMagius on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Versions?"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

XP64 is actually based on Windows 2003. In many ways it is the true predecessor of Windows Vista.

RE[3]: Versions?
by Shkaba on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Versions?"
Shkaba Member since:
2006-06-22

Maybe because of :

"Linux has been running on 64 bits since the summer of 1994, when Linus Torvalds ported Linux to the Alpha chip."

nix users are not impressed with ms catching up. As per Paul's own admition of the fact that "Vista's best features appeared first on Mac OS X, sometime years ago" may I recommend a new marketing catch phrase:
"the most caught up OS ... puff puff ... will you other guys please slow down .... "

RE[4]: Versions?
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 10th Nov 2006 00:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Versions?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You do know that NT also has been running on ALPHA for a long time, right? In fact, even earlier than Linux-- NT 3.1 was released in 1993. NT also runs on SPARC, MIPS, Clipper, and probably some more I'm forgetting at the moment.

Forget the myth. NT is just as portable as Linux. It's just that there is no financial interest into running NT on uncommon platforms. However, I am sure that if a big customer wants a SPARC build of Windows Server 2003, they'd get it.

RE[4]: Versions?
by alcibiades on Fri 10th Nov 2006 06:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Versions?"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

It is true, you can get 64 bit linux. When installing Etch on my new machine, amd64, I did. But I regret it. You have all kinds of problems with libraries, and the other day I really wanted to see the flash tutorials on the dabodev site: well, no flash. I also had problems with Mandriva 2006 64bit on another machine, and ended up putting in 32bit regardless. Problem is not all the apps you want are fully compatible. Its ok if all you want to do is Office and stuff (though Office behaves a bit strangely too - Base and Forms are either unstable or one or two features simply don't work).

Just one person's experience, but I feel its not quite ready for prime time. Been a while, too.

Thom. There's a typo.
by dylansmrjones on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:35 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

It's Thurrott, and not Thurrot.

RE: Thom. There's a typo.
by pumupthapointz on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:39 UTC in reply to "Thom. There's a typo."
pumupthapointz Member since:
2006-06-28

Nah it's Parrot.

RE[2]: Thom. There's a typo.
by dylansmrjones on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom. There's a typo."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Now now, be nice ;)

RE[2]: Thom. There's a typo.
by Kroc on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom. There's a typo."
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

An ex-Parrot!

RE[3]: Thom. There's a typo.
by raver31 on Sat 11th Nov 2006 09:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thom. There's a typo."
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

its not, it is just sleeping

RE: Thom. There's a typo.
by vlado on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:46 UTC in reply to "Thom. There's a typo."
vlado Member since:
2005-10-26

This is so unimportant. Who could even bother to remember that?

RE[2]: Thom. There's a typo.
by dylansmrjones on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom. There's a typo."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, names _are_ important. They are a part of your identity ;)

Besides that I didn't remember anything. I discovered it while writing my own post.

RE: Thom. There's a typo.
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:26 UTC in reply to "Thom. There's a typo."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It's Thurrott, and not Thurrot.

LALALALALALALALALALA I'm not hearing you LALALALALALALALA.

Ok, it's fixed.

RE[2]: Thom. There's a typo.
by dylansmrjones on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Thom. There's a typo."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

*LOL*

Please don't do that again. It makes my stomach hurt ;)

review
by netpython on Thu 9th Nov 2006 21:35 UTC
netpython
Member since:
2005-07-06

Where's the review?

Windows Ultimate Extras of course that isn't included in home basic,doesn't that sound logical?

vlado
Member since:
2005-10-26

What about SMP ?

mmu_man Member since:
2006-09-30

> What about SMP ?
I guess the Home edition will barely allow a single CPU, maybe a dual core ;)

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

THe home edition only allows 1 CPU, but unlimited cores, according to the article

eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows NT has supported SMP since 1994. Paul Thurrott evidently did not find it worth mentioning as a "modern OS feature".

rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

Unisys OS2200 supported multiple processors back in the mid-1960's when the OS was called OS1100 and the boxes it ran on were branded UNIVAC.

It *isn't* a modern OS feature.

Edited 2006-11-13 16:35

prior art...
by mmu_man on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:55 UTC
mmu_man
Member since:
2006-09-30

> "[...] many of Vista's best features appeared first on Mac OS X, sometimes years ago."
You mean those features that appeared 10 years ago in BeOS, AmigaOS, and others ?
I despise software patents, still I wish Be, Inc. would have patented those things long ago, they would still be in business and would get millions of royalties from MS and Apple.

RE: prior art...
by mElLiN on Fri 10th Nov 2006 09:31 UTC in reply to "prior art..."
mElLiN Member since:
2005-07-06

nah they would be a part of microsoft after a hostile takeover

Teaser...
by Hands on Thu 9th Nov 2006 22:57 UTC
Hands
Member since:
2005-06-30

This is only the first (and second) part of an eight part review. The first part is only intended as an introduction the the following seven parts. So, it isn't much of a review. There is a link to the second part at the bottom of the page. I guess that the other six parts haven't been completed yet. For those expecting a complete review (like me), we'll have to practice some patience.

Re: the first part. I was quite surprised by his implications/claims that Microsoft was the only OS supplier that did anything truly significant over the past few years. I was more surprised by some of the things he claimed to be significant. It was even more difficult to believe after seeing the comparisons he was making whether directly or indirectly.

Re: the second part. I have not seen any decent table of features comparing the different versions prior to this. Granted, I haven't really looked, but it is much easier to see what differences exist between versions with this kind of format as opposed to a rant about how terribly inadequate Vista Basic will be.

In short, much of the "introduction" was quite unrealistic about Windows in comparison to alternative systems, and the second part was nicely informative about Vista's different offerings. If I didn't know any better I'd say that Thurrott lived in a Microsoft box seeing the world through Microsoft-colored glasses.

five years in the making
by stestagg on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:20 UTC
stestagg
Member since:
2006-06-03

I love the spin they've put on what is essentially a 3 year development overrun. Trying to make it sound like a vintage ;) .

But really, Microsoft have been playing catchup. A MS Exec admitted that they only announced Longhorn becuase Apple had released Tiger. No-one in Microsoft really expected Longhorn/Vista to come out before now, they just had to string the Businesses along for long enough for them to build something that could rival the main features of Tiger.

Hardware based GUI?
by rajj on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:45 UTC
rajj
Member since:
2005-07-06

What was graphics acceleration before? It's the same thing with a different set of drawing primitives.

The real question in my mind is...
by steveftoth on Thu 9th Nov 2006 23:46 UTC
steveftoth
Member since:
2005-10-30

Ok so they release Vista, big deal. We all have to upgrade to it at some point as MS is the defacto standard. Everyone uses it because everyone uses it.

Is MS changing their development cycles to stop this from happening again? Or are they going to just repeat this and make a Vista Longhorn 2 that will also never fully be released.

No matter how you slice it, Vista had some very major cutbacks from what they were promising. Maybe they should to have done what Apple has done and just slowly release features in a new version every year. Mr Thurott has put Apple in a bad light for only releasing minor upgrades to their OS instead of delivering a revolution like Vista was SUPPOSED to be. Instead we get an upgrade equal to 2-3 years of updates instead of a revolution.

Personally I think that MS was overreaching with their aspirations. They need to release minor updates all the time rather then one huge updates, like the frog in water, it's better to slowly heat the frog rather then throw it in boiling water.

For many people, vista may just be too much of a change I mean why not jump to another (linux/mac) platform if moving to vista will be such a large change?

hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

//Personally I think that MS was overreaching with their aspirations. They need to release minor updates all the time rather then one huge updates, like the frog in water, it's better to slowly heat the frog rather then throw it in boiling water. //

MS does release minor updates. They are called service packs. MS does not charge for service packs.

MS cannot "release minor updates all the time" because then MS cannot charge you for buying Windows again. If MS holds off for a period, then releases "one huge update" amidst a lot of hype and gives it a new name ... then MS can charge everybody all over again for the software.

darthstupid Member since:
2006-11-07

your service pack analogy is old, tired and fallacious. until xp sp2 microsoft hasn't ever released a service pack that added any new, exciting or must have features to windows, under the hood or otherwise.

oh unless you can call windows 3.1 a service pack to windows 3.0. of course you had to buy that one too...

Edited 2006-11-13 07:05

someone Member since:
2006-01-12

Mr Thurott has put Apple in a bad light for only releasing minor upgrades to their OS instead of delivering a revolution like Vista was SUPPOSED to be. Instead we get an upgrade equal to 2-3 years of updates instead of a revolution.

I wouldn't characterize Apple's OS X upgrades as minor upgrades. They usually include major underlying changes, such as new API, changes to the kernel, new window system, new currency model, new objective-c language features etc. Many earlier versions will also break application compatibility.

See this article to get an idea about the kind of changes you would see in Thurott's "minor upgrade": http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/

AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

"They need to release minor updates all the time rather then one huge updates, like the frog in water, it's better to slowly heat the frog rather then throw it in boiling water."

That's, um, not the point of the frog / water analogy at all.

Powerpc as well....
by mbpark on Fri 10th Nov 2006 00:33 UTC
mbpark
Member since:
2005-11-17

I remember reading here that NT ran on PowerPC, MIPS, Alpha, and x86 in released versions.

Apparently the i860 and SPARC versions never were released.

I saw a 64-bit version of Windows 2000 advanced server running 64-bit sql server at pc expo at the javits center in 1999. It never got released either.

I think Win2K was the first 64 bit windows based on what I saw.

Browser: Opera/8.01 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/2.0.4719/1378; en; U; ssr)

Win2k and 64 bit development
by Shkaba on Fri 10th Nov 2006 00:39 UTC
Shkaba
Member since:
2006-06-22
Vista's max processor count
by poohgee on Fri 10th Nov 2006 01:43 UTC
poohgee
Member since:
2005-08-13

Vista supports more than 128GB of RAM in business & above versions - but only a maximum of 2 processors .

So Vista is not for 2+ processor workstations which might actually have up to that amount of RAM ?

Do all 2+ processor systems use Windows server ?

Article summary:
by suslik on Fri 10th Nov 2006 06:39 UTC
suslik
Member since:
2005-07-27

Check yourself if you don't believe me. Literally, and seriously, the summary:

"Ummm.", "Yer olde pops here!", "Here is a picture of my childern", followed by a soup of about a thousand permutations of words "Vista, Windows, XP, Longhorn, long wait, totally worth it"

Was the author drunk while writing the article?