OSNews

Thanks for the greeting. I would like to caution against being too judgemental, though. In many societies the family Christmas gathering can be quite large so two carts full of food might not be out of line. When I was growing up we often times had fifteen or more people at the dinner table. I will be at my sons house and there will more than likely be at least ten people and that is a lot of food.

Also, in our family it is a tradition to portion out the leftover food so that everybody takes food home with them. So what looks like gluttony may actually be something entirely different.

Yeah, you are of course right on this one. I just needed a symbol to get the entry started, and this anecdote was a good fit, and I'm fairly sure you get what I'm hinting at there .

Additionally, in the village where that supermarket was located (one village up north from mine) everybody knows everyone, so we kinda know for whom those trollies were meant .

I'd second that. And add a bit. Some of us have the Christmas gathering taking more than just the Christmas eve.

Last night we got a reunion of our family, for like six hours, it's pretty much a tradition for us. Now, each one went to their homes and I'm getting ready to keep the gathering happening for like 10 or 12 hours.

And hey, let's talk about a lot of people on those gatherings, to emphasize your point: My family came from Portugal to Brasil 60 years ago. My grandfather and grandmother are already gone, but we are still a family of 5 of their sons with each one's wifes/husbands and "children". And we have their children's children too!

Add to that a few of the friends we got for living a family large as that in the same neighborhood (in a 2 miles radius around our late grandmother's house) and you'll understand that we easily count our gathering guests by the dozen

Yesterday we had 31 people present at our dinner and pretty much all of them stayed for the celebrations after it. And I'm guessing we'll have a few more today, because there were no outsiders yesterday, they were probably all with their families.

We are simply a too-big-of-a-family and we incorporate our friends as part of the family too. So, can you imagine the size of our trollies ?

Now, A Merry-Continuation-Of-Christmas for you guys, for I'm going back there.

See ya at night.

It's not a good vs. bad comparison, there are good things and bad things in western civilizations, like in other civilizations. People just have to be humble enough to admit it otherwise we will still have wars everywhere on Earth like we've had so far because of egoitism.

Back to topic, yeah, I'm happy that we have this new release right for Christmas. I'm gonna grab me a copy right away

You probably want to use a different name than "bloodandsoil". Last time that frase was used it was by an Austrian. We didn't like it back then and we don't like it now.

Who is 'we'?

Your neighbours.

Would you please be more specific?

You are from Denmark and you are not my neighbor.

So who are you talking about when you say 'we' didn't like it then and 'we' don't like it now?

I wasn't referring to that bit - I was referring to the religions thing in general.

In the UK, there is no real thust to using a non offensive and 'pc' term.

Besides, 'holiday' means something different here anyway. Your holiday is your 'annual leave' or what you would call 'vacation' in the US. We refer to Christmas as just that, or to be pedantic maybe 'Christmas holiday'. We do the same with Easter too. We'd therefore need to say 'Happy Christmas holiday' to get the same meaning. To a Brit, 'happy holidays' sounds really false and meaningless.

Good Yule to all, anyway!

Finally something I can agree with the UK'ers on. Personally, there is one single meaning to Christmas, CHRIST, that's why his name gets top billing for the season you know.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Personally, there is one single meaning to Christmas, CHRIST, that's why his name gets top billing for the season you know.

Christmas got nothing to do with christianity, and I can't believe that you really don't know that...

Maybe it would be good if we all just happily agreed to disagree on stuff like that in this thread. It is a time for reflection upon, and celebration of, our own personal philosophies, whatever they may be. I happen to be atheist; And I celebrate along with everyone else. I don't mind it being called Christmas. That which we call a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.

Edited 2007-12-25 00:45

I too am an atheist, and I too will be eating vast amounts of food and consuming large amounts of alcohol with my family and friends over the next few days.

I also know that this time of the year was picked to mark the birth of the Christ, as it is the start of the nights getting longer in the northern hemisphere.

However, I have noticed that with all the bickering among the different religions, it is people like me, and sbergman27 who seem to enjoy Christmas the most, as we do not associate anything deeper to it, other than an excuse to pig out with people you care about.

And

Although I do not care for any of you in the slightest...

Have a peaceful, relaxing and most of all a Happy Christmas.

Merry Christmas

A good Christmas - a time to eat, drink, too much, be with family (or at least think about them) and generally have a warm fuzzy feeling about humanity. No bad thing.

To the Christians try not to be too ideologically committed to your doctrine, remember this is supposed to be a time of good will (I think in the UK the only people to ban Christmas were Christians) and I suppose the same goes to every one else.

Have as good day.

Actually Christmas has a lot to do with Christ - but Yule has little to do with Christmas.

It's just that we from Scandinavia has managed to blend things better (taking the traditions from south and keeping our own terms).

Imagine a Dane calling "Jul" for "Kristmesse" - oh dear...

"Christmas" is a Christian holiday derived from the German tribes, and other tribes, tradition of the celebration of the winter solstice. Many of the traditions -- dragging a tree into the house, lighting it, a giant feast, are all from those "pagan" traditions. The religious component is the part that makes it Christmas. Everything else is a celebration of Winter and the solstice, nothing more, nothing less. Even though I'm not a practicing christian, I still say "Merry Christmas", even my *** friend says "Marry Christmas", simply because that's what December 25 is -- Christmas Day. Not "Festivus day", "Holidays Day", or "Seasons Greetings Day", it's "Christmas Day". Anyone who gets their panties in a knot over that just wants to start something.

So I end this rant with a belated "Merry Christmas to all" -- to all the jews, muslims, christians, hindus, buddhists, everybody. Now go hug your husband, kiss your wife, tell your girlfriend, boyfriend, kids, that you love them, and thank $DEITY that you're around for another winter. That's what the real meaning of Christmas is.

By BurningShadow:
> Christmas got nothing to do with christianity, and I can't believe that you really don't know that...

Christmas has pagan origins, that's correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins

"...In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations..."

But how about reading the whole article? ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

"Christmas is an annual holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus. It refers both to the day celebrating the birth, as well as to the season which that day inaugurates, which concludes with the Feast of the Epiphany."

Click on Epiphany:

"Epiphany (Greek: ..., "appearance" or "manifestation") is a Christian feast intended to celebrate the "shining forth" or revelation of God to mankind in human form, in the person of Jesus."

So Christmas has definitely a lot to do with Christianity.

Edit: Original message from BurningShadow inserted

Edited 2007-12-27 10:26

Uhm... even if you ignore every other religion's holidays around this time, "Happy Holidays" is also a way of saying "Happy New Year" too, the origin of the phrase... ^_^;

Myself, I'm a happy pagan, and I don't mind Christians who also celebratate my holiday -- it's the day to celebrate selflessness, charity, and goodwill towards others, after all. :>

The issue is that there is a group of people who are constantly in the mode of "ooh, I better ensure that so-and-so doesn't feel left out by saying 'Christmas'" - for me, I'm not a Christian, but I certainly don't feel offended if someone says 'Merry Christmas' and I say 'Merry Christmas'.

PS. Side note the person raising about Christmas, yes, we know it was a 'dart board' guess in regards to Jesus's birth but I think that the birth, rather than the day it actually occurs on, is the more important thing to consider. Trivialities such as 'is this the right day' simply serve to distract.

The issue is that there is a group of people who are constantly in the mode of "ooh, I better ensure that so-and-so doesn't feel left out by saying 'Christmas'".

While that's no doubt correct in some cases, I believe it's actually mostly due to a specific political philosophy that wishes to do away with religion so do all they can to remove all references to it. They used to be called communists but that's unpopular these days so they're known as the "politically correct" these days.

(Surely unintentional) Comedy gold.

Hold the nog, just pass me the rum.

Merry Christmas everyone, from my liver to yours.

Yes, but what distro? =P

That's not the important thing... it what desktop environment He would choose. I myself see Jesus as a Gnome user who recently has been trying XFCE a bit...

Merry Merry Christmas to everyone, regardless!

Naw, Jesus is a *box user. Probably Flux or Openbox. They're nothing more then he needs but are still modern.

Happy Holidays!

Gnome user myself but everyone knows, Jesus uses Enlightenment. However as is my position on most things,

Gnome is evil
Gnome is sin
Sin is forgiven
So Gnome is in!

Cheers.

"""

"""

I heard, through the grapevine, that he uses current versions of SLS on his desktop, and Yggdrasil on his laptop. (There are advantages to having ready access to the afterlife.)

That was intended to avert a flame war. But just watch one break out among the greybeards here anyway! :-P

Edited 2007-12-25 01:02

Well, I'm installing Ubuntu for my Mom this Christmas.

Arch of course.

More importantly, Jesus is a vi man.

Ubuntu Christian edition.

Edited 2007-12-25 13:22

If Jesus used anything it'd be Haiku...think about it

Well, if it's explicitly about redemption and freedom, then:

http://dynebolic.org/

;-)

Wow that's a lot of bitterness and baggage to be carrying around on a holiday that promotes love and giving. Merry Christmas to you. I don't say that as any kind of snide remark, but I genuinely think maybe you need it as much as anyone here.

Who said I believe in religion? I believe it is sheer hypocrisy to say Merry Christmas or any other religious mantra babble while we have religious wars going on today. As long as one human being oppresses another we really need to check our religions.

Maybe, just maybe, I am just an extremely jaded 44 year-old New Mexican. I doubt it. My green eyes have seen way too much violence in life to not believe we are descended from apes. Apes with violent and self-destructive tendencies. I am just waiting for the next religious nut job or mentally-imbalanced paranoid to prove me right ... again.

"""

"""

Hi mind!dagger,

We're both 44. And I live just a state or two over from you in Oklahoma City, OK. (In what part of NM do you live?) And I'm also atheist. So that gives us a lot in common. I also see much harm derived from overzealous devotion to various religions. Though I'm currently listening to Bach (Sleepers, Wake), whose wonderful music was inspired very directly by the deeply abiding sense of God in his life. Religion, like any other powerful meme or tool, can result in both good and ill. Religion is an all too common motive and justification for perpetuating wars and atrocities. And yet it was a fervent search to understand the Mind of God which resulted in the enrichment of our understanding of the universe by Einstein in the last century. (Though his use of the word "God" is very often misinterpreted, his outlook and could only be described as being numinous in nature.)

It is not news that many things happen in this world every day, both good and bad, heart-warming and appalling, and plenty that simply defy categorization. As a powerful, indeed perhaps *the* most powerful, motivator of actions, religion is bound to figure into much of that, for good or ill.

All that we can do is to act with sense and compassion, setting a good example for others. And we must understand that doing so may not be enough; That in the grand scheme of things, we are very small, and our individual actions may not be enough to measurably change a world which encompasses 6+ thousand million other people. (Think of how difficult it can be to sway the views of even one!) Our sphere of influence is limited. I think it is important, if we want to be as effective as we can, to become comfortable with that unpleasant truth.

Getting back to the topic at hand, here we have a holiday at which people *are* encouraged to practice good will, even imperfectly. That is a good thing. The fact that we don't always do that is not really hypocritical. And more importantly, it doesn't really matter whether it is or not. What matters is that people are at least trying to make a special effort to do a little better, even temporarily. That is a very good thing. And throwing a wet blanket upon it is counterproductive.

On a more personal level, I believe that we can be most effective at helping the world when we, ourselves, have accepted the World as it is, all the horrors and wonders wrapped up, literally, into a big ball, and recognizing that that is what is, and that it is horrifying, wondrous, and completely beyond our conception all at once. (And that's just the earth; I'm not even addressing the Universe, here.)

I believe that we are more effective when acting not from anger that the world is not what we would like it to be, but from a more pragmatic sense of equanimity, and a desire to do what we can, however small. To be a part of the solution when we can. To refuse to be a part of the problem when we can. And to do ourselves the service of not getting bent out of shape over our limitations.

And although I do not believe in a deity in the sense that many people do, I would like end my post with this verse, originally written by Reinhold Niebuhr, which I think many of us could benefit from reflecting upon all year around. It's well known; Perhaps even clich'e. But read it. *Really* read it, this time. And consider how it might be put to better application in our everyday lives:


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Peace and Long Life,
Steve Bergman

Edited 2007-12-25 14:08

Hello Steve,

I live in Portales, New Mexico. It's a small university village.

I would say, after the violent 9-11, that I am on the very thin line between atheism and an agnosticism.

I agree with you that religions perpetuate the human capacity for cruel and vicious things.

On the flip-side, I do have a respect for people, of faith and tradition, who lay down their swords, break them into plowshares, and devote their lives to living in complete and total peace.

I have seen the strength of non-violent human activities in action.

Personally, my mother's family is a long line of Swiss, mostly from the French-speaking cantons, Mennonites. It may be the Mennonite influence which prevents me from completely rejecting the notion of a deity completely.

Beyond the deity question, I would say I have a strong aversion to faith-based violence being perpetuated under the power and approval of the 50 states and its people.

Faith-based revenge or violence is never justified under any circumstances. A social negative placed into another social negative never produced a social positive. A social negative into a social positive produces a social negative. A social positive introduced into a social negative may-or-may-not produce a social positive.

Maybe this is naive of me, but, should not people who claim faith-based good will and compassion practice it 365 days a year? Live it?

To me there are two 9-11 events. Both have altered the tinting on the mind's lens.

One is when men, so we are told, of a certain faith-based teaching followed the orders of a certain person and slammed jet airliners into New York's Twin Towers on September 11.

This `day of human savagery` is abbreviated into a form, 9-11, and is, at least in the English-speaking world, `shorthand` for violence.

The other, 9-11, few remember this date, September 11, 1906 marks the beginning of non-violent resistance.

Using the non-violent resistance lens in which I see through, here are my original thoughts about what I am hoping for in the next year - reloaded.

We absolutely must have a president who thinks. I did not believe then and still hold now that the current selected executive at the top of the federal system is firing all neurons.

There are two political candidates in the current run for this office who have any conceptual idea of how to actively resist human savagery in a thinking and humane manner.

Our union of 50 states has absolutely no business in the internal affairs of another union, legitimate or other, of people, provinces, states, etc.

Pull all the forces and resources home. Unless our immediate survival is in question we have absolutely no business in the internal affairs of other people and their countries.

Throwing or giving money at a problem does not make it go away much less resolve it. If a person needs a pair of shoes, take them to the store and buy them a pair of shoes; if they are hungry then take them to the store to purchase food or buy or fix them a meal; and if they need work, and it's in you ability, then give them something that will help them retain their dignity as a human being.

What if the fuel I am purchasing for my automobile, no it's not a new hybrid but it is small and older, passes money, eventually, into the hands of a person or group who follows a certain faith-based teaching who slammed jet airliners into New York's Twin Towers?

Complete and total energy independence from all overseas sources of fuel is not only national security it is family security as-well-as sane economics. Surely everyone knows you can make tables, chairs and other commodities from oil.

There is a noticeable and not-so-subtle shift in the thinking of the people in this area. This shift is the body and shadow of the violent 9-11.

For me, when a person says, Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, or other seasonal blessings, I envision a world based on reason, science and human civility.

A world where the living body and longer shadow of the `non-violent 9-11` will eventually displace the terrorism, neo-imperialism and all other forms of human savagery.

Please have a safe and relaxing time this time of year! If Oklahoma is anything like New Mexico then there will be a lot of festive drunks behind the wheels of SUVs and massive trucks.

Troy

Edited 2007-12-26 17:22

Utter nonsense, bogus, and hogwash. Violence is inherent to the human race - religion is just an excuse for said violence. Most wars in the world were fought for land and wealth, not for religion.

Please, have some perspective! Tens upon tens of millions of people were killed only last century under the 'scientific atheism' of communism, with a moral foundation provided by evolution - survival of the fittest, killing people no worse than mowing your lawn, not answerable to God, no absolute right/wrong with morality reduced to shifting opinions, etc.

Still today, Christians are persecuted in China, with state controlled churches having leaders appointed by the government who demonstrate "political reliability". The teachings of these churches often conflict with the Bible, giving rise to the unregistered "house churches", which are illegal. Many house church members over the years have been imprisoned, tortured, or sent to labour camps for 're-education'.

History has shown that atheist-fanatics, who really substitute themself as God - their ideologies as their idols - have been far deadlier than religious-fanatics.

Just remember what the Godless are also capable of.

Lucas

OSNews burped twice. Deleted it.

Edited 2007-12-25 05:25